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	<title>Comments on: SW: Damage Changes</title>
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	<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/</link>
	<description>What are you going to do next?!</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:56:29 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-505</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keyourcars.com/?p=4039#comment-505</guid>
		<description>One problem with any system is random favors the gm ifboth sides obey the same rules because the players are subjected to an infinitely greater amount of randomness than a given NPC.  It&#039;s not uncommon for bad guys to outnumber the PCs two to one or more which equals a pc if you consider that gives a wild die effect for the bad guys.  It&#039;s just a tough call all around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One problem with any system is random favors the gm ifboth sides obey the same rules because the players are subjected to an infinitely greater amount of randomness than a given NPC.  It&#8217;s not uncommon for bad guys to outnumber the PCs two to one or more which equals a pc if you consider that gives a wild die effect for the bad guys.  It&#8217;s just a tough call all around.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keyourcars.com/?p=4039#comment-504</guid>
		<description>Overall, I really like Savage Worlds, but this problem rankled me too. The solution I came up with was, in my opinion, simple and balanced: on a to-hot roll, the first raise gives an extra D6 damage as normal. The second effectively reduces the target&#039;s Toughness by 1. The third raise gives one more D6, and so on. Thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Overall, I really like Savage Worlds, but this problem rankled me too. The solution I came up with was, in my opinion, simple and balanced: on a to-hot roll, the first raise gives an extra D6 damage as normal. The second effectively reduces the target&#8217;s Toughness by 1. The third raise gives one more D6, and so on. Thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-473</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 00:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keyourcars.com/?p=4039#comment-473</guid>
		<description>I’ll usually give Big Solos some Edges from the Hardy, Hard to Kill and/or Nerves of Steel families to help them last the distance (and sometimes even Lucky, for the extra benny). And it goes without saying that a good Vigour die to help with soaking is vital.  Sometimes it’s also handy to give a big solo a couple of hanger-on extras (I call them remoras…) to exploit the Fanatics rules (from PotSM and others), where any extra within 1” takes the hit for his glorious leader.

I agree that the doing the Shake/Unshake Tango every round does get pretty tedious.  My players will get frustrated if they keep hitting and can&#039;t hurt, but if they have trouble hitting at all they&#039;ll knuckle down and get cunning.  For this reason, I’ve been focusing my NPC buffing more on Parry scores rather than Toughness, and this seems to working okay so far.  This ties in with the main topic of having too much distance between hitting and hurting – I’m trying to shrink this distance, but push the hitting threshold farther away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’ll usually give Big Solos some Edges from the Hardy, Hard to Kill and/or Nerves of Steel families to help them last the distance (and sometimes even Lucky, for the extra benny). And it goes without saying that a good Vigour die to help with soaking is vital.  Sometimes it’s also handy to give a big solo a couple of hanger-on extras (I call them remoras…) to exploit the Fanatics rules (from PotSM and others), where any extra within 1” takes the hit for his glorious leader.</p>
<p>I agree that the doing the Shake/Unshake Tango every round does get pretty tedious.  My players will get frustrated if they keep hitting and can&#8217;t hurt, but if they have trouble hitting at all they&#8217;ll knuckle down and get cunning.  For this reason, I’ve been focusing my NPC buffing more on Parry scores rather than Toughness, and this seems to working okay so far.  This ties in with the main topic of having too much distance between hitting and hurting – I’m trying to shrink this distance, but push the hitting threshold farther away.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-472</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keyourcars.com/?p=4039#comment-472</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d read something similar to that on the posts and after consideration it does seem obvious.  Some options I&#039;ve seen are things like give &#039;solos&#039; more than 3 wounds or extra bennies to use to remove Shaken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d read something similar to that on the posts and after consideration it does seem obvious.  Some options I&#8217;ve seen are things like give &#8216;solos&#8217; more than 3 wounds or extra bennies to use to remove Shaken.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-471</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keyourcars.com/?p=4039#comment-471</guid>
		<description>Our group found just the opposite problem: generally, one PC per round would score a huge hit (the combo of &quot;Wild&quot; dice and &quot;Aces&quot; would always give result in 4+ the target number).

The average damage dice for most PCs will range from 2d6 (e.g. longbow) to 2d8 (e.g. d8 Str &amp; longsword).  Thus the average damage is 7.  Now add the &quot;crit&quot; 1d6 for an average of 3 more damage = 10.  Now factor in that any of these 3 dice can &quot;Ace&quot; and you roughly have another 50% chance of 3+ more damage.  (My PCs got lucky and often Aced 2 or more dice during damage...).

This will kill most &quot;Extras&quot; outright.  Even Ogres and Great White Sharks get shaken!  Which points out the critical flaw in the SW damage system: the game does not handle &quot;the solo monster&quot; scenerio.  Ultimately, with 3-4 PCs attacking a single monster, one attack will damage (as shown above).  Thus the monster is shaken (and can&#039;t act).  This makes for a pretty dull encounter as round after round the PCs continue to &#039;stun&#039; the huge dragon.  Eventuall someone will Ace his damage so high that it results in the creature&#039;s death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our group found just the opposite problem: generally, one PC per round would score a huge hit (the combo of &#8220;Wild&#8221; dice and &#8220;Aces&#8221; would always give result in 4+ the target number).</p>
<p>The average damage dice for most PCs will range from 2d6 (e.g. longbow) to 2d8 (e.g. d8 Str &amp; longsword).  Thus the average damage is 7.  Now add the &#8220;crit&#8221; 1d6 for an average of 3 more damage = 10.  Now factor in that any of these 3 dice can &#8220;Ace&#8221; and you roughly have another 50% chance of 3+ more damage.  (My PCs got lucky and often Aced 2 or more dice during damage&#8230;).</p>
<p>This will kill most &#8220;Extras&#8221; outright.  Even Ogres and Great White Sharks get shaken!  Which points out the critical flaw in the SW damage system: the game does not handle &#8220;the solo monster&#8221; scenerio.  Ultimately, with 3-4 PCs attacking a single monster, one attack will damage (as shown above).  Thus the monster is shaken (and can&#8217;t act).  This makes for a pretty dull encounter as round after round the PCs continue to &#8216;stun&#8217; the huge dragon.  Eventuall someone will Ace his damage so high that it results in the creature&#8217;s death.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-470</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keyourcars.com/?p=4039#comment-470</guid>
		<description>With A) the thought was to make average damage the minimum damage rolled.  Acing would still occur. 

Good comments on the rest.    I am going to try E - Free No Mercy edge.  It seems to be a popular option for those who have some of the same perceptions with combat that I seem to have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With A) the thought was to make average damage the minimum damage rolled.  Acing would still occur. </p>
<p>Good comments on the rest.    I am going to try E &#8211; Free No Mercy edge.  It seems to be a popular option for those who have some of the same perceptions with combat that I seem to have.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.keyourcars.com/2010/06/21/sw-damage-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-469</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keyourcars.com/?p=4039#comment-469</guid>
		<description>Some things stand out to me when reading your options that involve averages:

- Op. A - some high Toughness creatures  need  an ace on the damage roll to get a high enough result to hurt them; using averages takes away the ability to ace and with it the chance that weaker PCs can do any damage in these situations.

- Op. C - I like this, but maybe the player should have to declare in advance whether they are going to take the avg or roll for damage (ie no rolling snake eyes then saying &quot;Crap - I&#039;ll take the avg&quot;)

- Op. E - I like giving players interesting choices, and any time they have to decide whether or not to spend a benny is an interesting choice, because it could cost them their lives later on.  This option is empowering for players, but takes away a bit of the risk of failure and therefore combat  suspense, IMO.

Another option would be that a raise on your attack roll gives you a flat +3 bonus (avg of the bonus d6 die, rounded down) to your damage roll; this way, you can still fail but it&#039;s less likely. With this variation, it attack roll bonuses don&#039;t have to be capped at one raise - you could make 2 raises +4, 3 raises + 5 etc if you wanted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some things stand out to me when reading your options that involve averages:</p>
<p>- Op. A &#8211; some high Toughness creatures  need  an ace on the damage roll to get a high enough result to hurt them; using averages takes away the ability to ace and with it the chance that weaker PCs can do any damage in these situations.</p>
<p>- Op. C &#8211; I like this, but maybe the player should have to declare in advance whether they are going to take the avg or roll for damage (ie no rolling snake eyes then saying &#8220;Crap &#8211; I&#8217;ll take the avg&#8221;)</p>
<p>- Op. E &#8211; I like giving players interesting choices, and any time they have to decide whether or not to spend a benny is an interesting choice, because it could cost them their lives later on.  This option is empowering for players, but takes away a bit of the risk of failure and therefore combat  suspense, IMO.</p>
<p>Another option would be that a raise on your attack roll gives you a flat +3 bonus (avg of the bonus d6 die, rounded down) to your damage roll; this way, you can still fail but it&#8217;s less likely. With this variation, it attack roll bonuses don&#8217;t have to be capped at one raise &#8211; you could make 2 raises +4, 3 raises + 5 etc if you wanted.</p>
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